Why Anxiety And OCD Get Stuck

Blake Elsner 0:23

Welcome back to another episode of Elevate with Elsner. Today we're talking about something that I think almost everybody experiences on some level, anxiety. But we're also going somewhere that I think that is really misunderstood. OCD. We casually say things like, I'm so OCD, or I'm just an anxious person. But what happens when your brain gets stuck on a thought? When you know something probably isn't rational, but you can't stop thinking about it, checking it, googling it, asking someone about it, or just looking for reassurance. My guest today understands that world for a living. Dr. Tom Gauss is a licensed psychologist specializing in anxiety and OCD treatment and is a co-owner of Anxiety Solutions of Denver. And Tom has some St. Louis roots, so obviously we have to get into that. So today I want to strip away the clinical language and understand what's actually happening inside our brains, why some of the things we do to make anxiety go away can actually keep it alive. And most importantly, what we can do about it. Dr. Tom Gauss, welcome to Elevate with Elsner.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Thank you. So glad to be here and so good to connect with you. Um, it's been a while.

Blake Elsner 1:39

It has, it has. So let just let's just jump into it. Who is Tom? Before we, you know, before we get into anybody else's brain, I want to know about yours. Who is Tom Gauss?

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Oof. Well, you're asking the psychologist that question. That's a we could talk for hours about that, but I'll just stick with uh I'll stick with the the easy stuff, the straightforward stuff. Um, so I'm I'm a clinical licensed psychologist in Denver, Colorado. I'm from St. Louis, Missouri. Um, I'm a husband, I'm a father of two beautiful little kids. Um, and as of years ago, a business owner. Um and trying to get a little social media platform off the ground. So um I guess those are those are the roles that I I fulfill.

Blake Elsner 2:37

Totally. And so how like how does your story eventually lead you specifically into anxiety and OCD? Did you battle this growing up? Did you have a passion about it? Was there something that kind of triggered it?

SPEAKER_00 2:49

For sure. For sure. I've absolutely um had my own battles with anxiety, um, some of which I wasn't even aware of, just kind of felt like this is my state of being for a big part of my life. It's definitely prevalent in my family. Um and in high school, I took my first psychology course and was just like my brain just lit up. Um I couldn't get enough of it. Um, and pretty much have oddly enough, not really deviated course from from that moment in time, majored in psychology and in undergrad, went to six years of grad school to get my doctorate in it, and um always knew because you know, one, I have experienced anxiety myself. I just feel like I understand it well um and understand people who experience it. Um, and so kind of gravitated to that kind of work throughout graduate school. And the first time I was able to work in a clinic similar to the one I I own now, there was there was no doubt that this is what I should be doing and um how I can be most helpful to other folks.

Blake Elsner 4:11

And when you like when you talk about other folks, do you analyze? Do you find yourself analyzing like everybody you meet or everybody that walks into the room?

SPEAKER_00 4:20

That's funny. Uh, so many people that I tell for the first time I that what I do for a living ask, are you analyzing me? Um and uh I'm happy to say that when I'm not on the job, I am not on the job. Um you know, that's not to say I don't notice things, but there we'll talk about this today. Uh, you do have a choice, and you know, not about your thoughts, but about thinking. Um, and thinking's intentional. So um I choose not to think and analyze um when I'm not at work.

Blake Elsner 5:01

Well, that's that's probably a smart tip right there, like right in the beginning, right there that you can uh write down. Um so like what let's just start ridiculously

What Anxiety Is Built For

Blake Elsner 5:11

simple. Like, what what is anxiety?

SPEAKER_00 5:15

That's a fair question. Um anxiety is one of the most basic and adaptive emotions that every human has access to. Um the adaptive and useful purpose it serves is to remind us what is important and motivate us to protect what is important. Um it keeps us alive.

Blake Elsner 5:46

So it's clearly not always bad, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:49

No, it's actually extremely helpful um in a lot of situations. Of course, you know the folks I treat, it's you know, it's gone a little overboard and actually started to be unhelpful. Um but when it's doing its job the way it should, it's it might be the most helpful emotion you have access to.

Blake Elsner 6:14

That's really interesting to hear you like frame it like that, because it's like you it's the way of thinking, it's just like twisting that thought. Um, and it like it almost like in my head, I was like, wow, like my anxiety is a lot of just thought-driven. Like, like you just like you like you said, and and um like what's actually physically happening inside like our brain and our body when we're actually anxious.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Great question. So I I'm gonna nerd out with you for a moment here and get into the brain science. Um basically the thing that is most responsible for anxiety is a part of your brain called your amygdala. And even animals have this thing, and there's a reason for that. It's its sole job is to keep you alive. It's not a very complex part of the brain, it doesn't do a whole lot. It has really that one job. I need to help keep you alive and protect what you deem important. And the way it goes about doing that is it is constantly scanning your environment, whether you want it to or not, and it's constantly scanning your body. It's also the emotional center of the brain. So I I don't know, you've probably seen men in black, right? Remember, there's a scene where like this alien's pretending to be a human and its face like opens up, and there's this like little alien sitting behind the control panel. I like to picture that as like how your what your amygdala is, it just sits behind your eyes and kind of looks out and sees what's going on. And based on what it sees in the scan of your environment and the scan of your body, it then chooses what emotion it's going to send you. Like it's got this control panel of emotions in front of it. Um, so if it perceives or picks up on something in your environment or in your body that it perceives to be dangerous or threatening, it hits the anxiety button. Um, and that anxiety is meant to motivate you to do something about the threat that it picked up on. And that that anxiety feeling is what you feel when you get activated, the shortness of breath, the tension in your chest, the restlessness in your limbs. It's literally preparing you to fight or flight or freeze.

Blake Elsner 8:54

You

Freeze Response And Embracing Nerves

Blake Elsner 8:54

know, that's interesting when you say fight or flight. I hear that freeze part. Um, you know, a lot of us obviously hear the fight or flight, and everyone knows that. But I think that freeze part is a third part that maybe people don't really understand, and they're like, wait, I'm not fight, I'm not in flight. But there's that third zone, and I feel like maybe it's almost the most dangerous zone, right? No doubt. No doubt. What would you expand on the on the that side?

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Well, it's kind of a sad explanation as to how and why that happens, right? And it happens a lot with folks who have endured trauma, um, especially ongoing, consistent, repetitive trauma. Um, and basically, you know, again, this thing is meant to kept keep you alive. And so, you know, imagine, for example, you know, you go home and you get beat, you know, physically abused by your parent. Um, the first handful of times that happens, you know, as a kid, you probably try to run and hide. All right, but say that doesn't work. You're in your house and your parent comes and finds you. And because you can't run, now you try to fight. But you're a little kid and your parents are stronger than you, so you lose that fight. All right, and you keep trying those strategies, they don't work anymore. Eventually, what you what your nervous system goes is okay, those two defenses aren't really working. Here's what we'll do, we'll freeze. It's kind of like when a possum plays dead. Like, if I just give up and stop fighting, maybe they'll stop. And you know, eventually over time, you know, you perceive a threat and you your brains kind of learn those two things don't work. All right, we're just gonna we're freezing. Or playing possum.

Blake Elsner 11:07

That's a you know, that that um, you know, it happens, I'm sure, every single day. I know it happens every single day, and it's it's sad to just hear, like you said, it's it's a sad explanation that's gonna come. And it is a sad, like what you're saying is extremely sad that this can happen. Um and I guess, you know, your job too, honestly, today is to maybe take some of these people in that have experienced that um in their childhood or in growing up or whatever it might be, and then somehow try to remove that trauma um and let them, you know, live free in a way, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Right. And I I guess it's probably important to throw out there that this doesn't only happen to people who have endured trauma. Right? Like it imagine, say, like you are afraid of public speaking. That's probably the most common anxiety concern out there. Running is essentially like just trying to avoid any scenario in which you would have to publicly speak. That's the that's the flight response. You can't do that and you're forced. You know, I my job requires me to speak in front of an audience, right? Then the fight is I'm gonna overprep. I'm gonna rehearse, I'm gonna have a script, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna battle this fear of like messing up and looking like a fool by just like working my absolute butt off. To do everything in my power to ensure that I don't make a fool of myself. If you go up and still stumble over your words, or you forget what you're gonna say, or like you, you know, even though you've got the script in front of you, somebody asked you a question you weren't prepared for, and you uh and you do that enough times, again, the brain learns, huh? So we can't avoid it. Fighting with it doesn't prevent the embarrassing moment. We're gonna freeze. And you walk up on the stage, you look out at the audience, and you're just like, oh it takes a lot of different forms.

Blake Elsner 13:18

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, even myself when I just spoke um a few weeks ago, you know, you you you get ready and you go up there and you're like, crap, like what am I what am I gonna talk about? And you know, part of it obviously is you know, you have a PowerPoint or some notes in front of you that obviously helps, but that that's still just like even myself that uh I've done enough podcasts and been on podcasts and spoke enough that even myself going up in front of a room full of 50 realtors that are in the same industry as me and talking, like I still like you know, you you still get a little nervous, right? Um, so like how like in terms of like that, how do you how do you like work through that type of anxiety?

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Embrace it. I like that. That's it. I mean, it's like I even before today, I'm a licensed clinical psychologist who specializes in anxiety and OCD. Five minutes before we hopped on this podcast, I felt some butterflies in my stomach. I felt, you know, a little tense, a little nervous. And you know, the way that I I guess relate to that and try to get my clients to relate to that is like, good, this matters.

Blake Elsner 14:36

Yeah, that's pretty that's pretty neat to you know hear from your perspective. Um, coming on here, and to me, like it's just me just chatting with you, but like the the thing about it is like it it makes sense because like yeah, this podcast is throughout the whole country, it's been in like 17 um countries, like it's pretty much all over the world. So, like I guess thinking about that, bringing someone on, a lot of people do say that like I was nervous to come on. And and and my goal, I guess, as the the host is to help pull that information out and help direct the the talk along to where um you know it's it's informational and educational for um the listeners. So it's it's been been great so far, and I appreciate you kind of exploring all this stuff with us as well um so far. So that's great.

Avoidance Reinforces Fear Over Time

Blake Elsner 15:27

Um let's go into like what's what's something I guess millions of of anxious people do because they think it's helping them when it's actually feeding their anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Great question. The number one thing I hope anyone listening today hears is that short-term avoidance of anxiety guarantees long-term maintenance of anxiety. So uh to put it, I guess simply, anything that you do to try to make yourself more comfortable in a moment of anxiety, or if you foresee something that you predict is gonna make me anxious and you figure out a way to avoid it or get around it so that you can feel more comfortable now, it guarantees long-term maintenance of anxiety about that thing.

Blake Elsner 16:30

That makes complete sense, you know. Yeah, makes complete sense, you know, you avoid it and rather than being uncomfortable and uh just putting yourself out there, but that's hard, like you say, and overcoming that um anxiety. And it's interesting how you talk about like how anxiety is not just trauma, like in probably a lot of us experience more of this type of anxiety than um actually induced trauma. Um, but yeah, no, it's just it's just crazy to think. So, what what role does avoidance play?

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Oh, it's the main role. Um I think like if we think about like a dog phobia, right? Somebody's terrified of dogs, and say they're sitting out in my waiting room waiting for their first session, they want to they want to get over this fear. Here's how this works, right? They're sitting there, another client walks up the door, they got their dog with them. Their amygdala is doing that scam we talked about, right? And it locates the dog for whatever reason, it believes it to be dangerous, shoots them a wave of anxiety. What do you think that person's gonna do? Be quiet. Be quiet, right? I would be surprised if they didn't in some form or fashion try to distance themselves from that dog, right? Maybe they move to the hallway instead of sitting the waiting room with it. And what happens is that's that's the avoidance we're talking about, right? I'm avoiding the thing that's making me anxious. Now, when they run into the hallway, this thing, this amygdala behind your eyes, goes, All right, my job is to protect you. I perceived the threat, I sent you anxiety about it. What you did in response to that anxiety is you got away from the dog. Let me do a quick check. Let me scan the body. Are you alive? Check. Are you still in danger? Scans the environment, goes, I'm safer out here than I was in there. Check. And then if it had arms, it would pat itself on the back. I'm doing a great job. Like that anxiety got you to keep yourself safe. All right. So the next time you see a dog, just to make sure I keep doing my job really well, I'm gonna hit that button twice. I'm gonna send you even more anxiety about it just to make sure you run away. That's reinforcement. One on one on one. So the avoidance is the thing that is guaranteeing more anxiety next time because you're teaching your brain, this is working. Thank you. More, please.

Blake Elsner 19:10

Wow. Yeah, that that's yeah, that's interesting hearing that um put like that. So to when you say to like, how do you how do you confront that? So, like, you know, you're like, okay, you think and say, you know what, that that I can be in this room and I'm still safe with this dog inside this waiting room. Is that how you have to think to yourself?

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Well, I'd make one slight tweak to that. Um one, of course, you have to stay in the room with the dog. That's uh all we do at my practice is exposure therapy. It's sitting in the room with that dog or whatever your form of a dog is, right? Um and it's more so about accepting that this might go poorly, but giving yourself the experience to actually see for yourself what happens. That's wonderful. I would not I would not encourage anyone to sit in that room and try to convince themselves mentally that they're safe. I would try to say this could go poorly, we'll have to wait and see, and let the experience be the teacher.

Blake Elsner 20:31

That's I guess the whole live and learn, right? That's right. I really I think part of me, um I've I feel like I've kind of learned that in in a way because the uncomfortable part, the the you know, putting yourself out there, it it's scary. So I think knowing that like it could go bad, like hey, people they're gonna they're gonna mock you, they're gonna you know, they're gonna make jokes about it, but at the same time, it can go it can go great, it can it can go even better than great.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

So also if it doesn't, can you tolerate it?

Blake Elsner 21:10

Yeah, that's and I guess that's a whole nother piece of the pie, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:15

For sure. I mean, that's how resilience is built, that's how confidence is built, that's how trust in oneself is built. It's like even in exposure, it's not always gonna go perfect, you're not gonna learn the complete opposite of what you're afraid of. But I think a lot of people end up learning a bit about their ability again to tolerate less than ideal circumstances, to tolerate fear, um, and to navigate things that I guess don't go in the most desirable way.

Blake Elsner 21:51

Well, I mean, uh it all it all has made great sense. And I think the whole anxiety conversation, um, if you want to obviously reach out to Tom and and talk to him more about it, obviously we'll put all that in the show notes and stuff.

OCD Misconceptions And Real Signs

Blake Elsner 22:05

But let's flip the script real quick and and cover a little OCD real fast. Um, because obviously I feel like that's one of the biggest misconceptions. Um, is when somebody says, hey, I'm so OCD because I like my desktop organized. Like, what are they getting wrong?

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Uh well potentially a lot. I mean, I would say there are folks that do have uh meet criteria for an OCD diagnosis that do compulsively keep everything extremely clean and tidy. Um but the thing they're getting wrong is that um the obsessions, which is really just repetitive thoughts over and over and over again, um those obsessions are what we call ego dystonic. Um, which essentially means that they like they go against what I believe to be true and what I know of myself and my value system. Um, so folks that actually like being really organized and tidy and have a lot of thoughts about, man, I really want to clean my space and it feels good to do it, that's not OCD. Somebody with OCD does not enjoy repetitively checking to make sure everything's in its right place. Um, they don't enjoy it kind of it almost at times feels like being enslaved to this compulsion to do it. Um and I would also say one of the most important criteria of OCD is that it impairs one's functioning. Um getting in the way of important things that you value or need to do. Um so if cleaning your room is not making you a worse husband, partner, father, employee, what have you, probably not meeting the criteria.

Blake Elsner 24:10

That's interesting. You say you portray it like that, because I feel like a lot of people are probably like, I don't have OCD. I just, you know, I'm literally fixated on my cap clicking properly when I put my, you know, put it back on my pen, like stuff like that. And that's not necessarily affecting anybody or causing any issues. You're just putting your cap on three times to, you know, make sure it clicks the way you like it to click.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Right. Right. Now, you know, some people that do have OCD, like, yeah, they it's called just right OCD, where they need the the cap to click just right. And if it doesn't, they are flooded with distress. Like it feels like the world's coming to an end or something terrible is gonna happen, and I can't focus on anything else until this pen cap clicks, right? And they're doing it over and over again.

Blake Elsner 25:03

Um I didn't even realize that was an actual clinical OCD. That's interesting that I just thought of that, and you know it's crazy that how you just that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

It can take a lot of forms, yeah.

Blake Elsner 25:16

Yeah, wow. So what like what's an intrusive thought?

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Well, an intrusion, I think we all there's actually research on this. Um pretty much everyone experiences intrusive thoughts. Um whether you have OCD anxiety or not. Um, the difference between OCD and the average Joe is that those intrusive thoughts are repetitive, they they just don't stop, they're almost constant. Um, and there's a strong aversion to them. Um so I would say that's yeah, that is the difference.

Blake Elsner 25:56

That that makes sense. So uh let's let's flip on to obviously we've talked about anxiety, a little bit of the OCD

Dr. Google And Reassurance Seeking

Blake Elsner 26:05

part. Um and now we got like a you know, we got a whole generation that you know, if they feel something in their body, they can Google it in five seconds and and convince themselves that they're practically dying, right? So what so and you throw AI into that now too. AI. Oh no, you can ask the same question or same literally the same question 30 different ways, and uh finally get like an answer that you know makes you feel great, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Um, so how do you like how do you get around all this? Oh man, it's so hard and it's getting harder. Um you know, Dr. Google and what will become Dr. AI, I think is is a very dangerous um thing to have available to folks that struggle with anxiety and OCD. Um, so one of you know the the treatment for this is called exposure and response prevention. And essentially the whole idea is like we need to remove behaviors that folks engage in to eliminate uncertainties or to get their distress or their intrusive thoughts to stop. And one of the most common things that people do in that realm is online research, reassurance seeking, and the health anxiety realm, researching symptoms. And so um, the folks that I work with, it's it's very early on in treatment. We have to come to an agreement that one, you have control over your behavior. It's hard. I'm not saying it should be easy, but we got to get on that page. And one of the behaviors that we're gonna you know commit to stopping is any form of online research to feel better in this moment or to get some certainty about what's happening.

Blake Elsner 27:51

And those are major wins, like right, like huge, yeah. And then that part, I mean, I'm I'm sure there's a a lot of other parts to it, but that's obviously six what you would call successful treatment. If you got somebody to stop that, right, that's a massive win.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

It is, it's definitely a massive win. Um and that it in our work, they're like progress doesn't go like this, it's not linear, you know. So people will commit to that for a week and then backslide week two and then recommit. And you know, it takes time, but um, that willingness is a a key ingredient to successful treatment for sure.

Blake Elsner 28:34

That's uh that's a that's a great great synopsis right there. And

Parenting Without Teaching Fear

Blake Elsner 28:39

last thing I want to kind of touch on. Obviously, you're a dad, I'm a dad. Um kids and what's like the difference between protecting our kids and accidentally like teaching them that discomfort is like dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

Man, that's a great and big question.

Blake Elsner 29:00

Yeah, so I I'm just thinking from like, you know, my kid says, like, hey, dad, I'm scared. Like, what should I say? Like, what should I not say?

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Well, that's yeah, that I can answer that. You know, I want to teach my kids, and I would encourage anyone to teach their kids that their emotions are valid and and okay to experience, um, that their emotions themselves are not dangerous. Um, so you know, I would I would encourage you to go, yeah, that is kind of scary, isn't it? Ooh. Ooh, boy, yeah, where do you feel it? Yeah, yeah, all right. Well, let's go do the hard thing. You know, that's what bravery is.

Blake Elsner 29:44

I love that. Like you're you're letting them express their emotions, you're confronting it and then kind of attacking it, right? I mean, in a way.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Yeah, and I think a lot of parents jump to trying to fix it, you know, by reassuring them, oh, this isn't dangerous, or oh, this is actually okay, or actually, oh, we don't have to do that. You know, I'll do it for you. Um, and I think unfortunately, the unintended message that sends is one, it's not okay to be anxious, and two, if you are anxious, I don't think you can handle it.

Blake Elsner 30:17

Yeah, I mean, uh, that's that is uh, I feel like what all of us parents need to kind of flip that because I think we like to jump the gun and be like, no, like you don't have to be scary, like, no, no, no, no, that's not scary when like we know it is, like that that is a scary thing. Like, like you said, like, yeah, that's that's pretty scary, right? Yeah, so that's a great that's a great point. And I think just another tidbit that you can write down and kind of think and and um you know use in your daily life with your kids. So obviously, one last thing, Tom. Um do you think there's a point where trying so hard to feel better can actually become the thing from preventing us from getting better?

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Absolutely, absolutely, and I would say, like, if your agenda is to feel better right now, that's when that gets dangerous. Um making progress in this realm is all about kind of making this deal with yourself that like I'm willing to feel more uncomfortable now to feel better long term. Um, and it's funny, a mentor of mine would use the phrase, we don't need to feel better, you need to feel better. And I was like, what do you what do you mean by that? He goes, feeling you want to feel better, meaning like you want this feeling to go away. We need to feel better, meaning like you need to experience your feelings better with less resistance. And like, all right, I kind of like that refrain. So yeah, I think like if you're if your agenda is I need to learn how to experience the full range of my emotions without so much resistance, um, that is kind of the way, the way forward.

Blake Elsner 32:15

That's great advice. And I think everybody, I think there's been stuff for every single person. Um, I think we all battle this type of stuff. And uh, you know, it's good to see that someone like yourself's out here on such a great mission, a great purpose to help um individuals, because this is not easy work um to take people in like this and try to try to heal them. You really have to have, I think, a power, um, you know, a special purpose here on earth. Um, that God sends you down here and goes, hey man, you gotta go, you gotta go heal these people and help them with their with their trauma and anxiety and OCD and just educate people because I think um what you did here today was tremendous. So I I really appreciate you coming on here. Any any final words you want to leave with with the audience?

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Well, uh yeah, I'd say for the folks listening who are struggling with with anxiety and or OCD, it can get better. Um one of the hardest things to do is to start and to say I need help. Um that's a super vulnerable thing to do, you know, interpersonally, but I also think it's a challenging thing to do with yourself to actually identify, man, this isn't something that I I like. It's actually is a problem and I want it to get better. The other thing that the next challenge is finding the right person. Um, you know, I anxiety and OCD actually don't respond well to a lot of forms of therapy, really, most forms of therapy. So I would say, like, if if this is something you deal with, find somebody who specialize in ex who specializes in exposure and response prevention. IOCDF.org is a great resource for that. Um, and of course, you know, feel free to reach out to me if and even if you're not working with me or somebody at our practice, I'm happy to at least guide you in the right direction.

Blake Elsner 34:25

Yeah, uh, we you know, we appreciate that. And and it's it's truly um life-saving advice. And and right here is just, I think, another thing, it's like fear, another that's another um big thing because I feel like there's people avoiding things, you know, there's people overthinking constantly. Um, and I think some reassurance is always needed. And I feel like listening to this episode is the reassurance that um people can can use and feel better, because even myself, just talking to you um has helped, you know, I feel like reshape a few things or a few thoughts on how to to cope with emotions, how to how to you know bring your emotions to the forefront. Um, and also with the kids. Like, I, you know, I think that's a that's a big part. So I appreciate you um coming on and having this conversation with us.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Oh, I just want to say thanks to you. I mean, this is this is new territory for me. Um, and it's it's kind of interesting. I was telling somebody the other day, like, this feels like the first time in my life where social media has uh served the intended purpose, like lifting people, lifting each other up and spreading kind of information and content that can actually like bring people together and help. So thank you for the opportunity and for the platform. I I truly appreciate it.

Blake Elsner 35:45

Absolutely. I appreciate I really appreciate you saying that. So um, and Tom, tell everybody where um they can learn more about you and anxiety solutions of Denver.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Yeah, so if you just search us anxiety solutions of Denver, we'll show up. The the actual website domain is effective therapysolutions.com. Uh, you can learn about our practice, what we do. We can, you know, we treat folks all over the country. Um, so if you're looking for treatment, let us know. Get us a holler. Also, just got uh an Instagram page off the ground at worry workshop where uh it's just started, but I'll be sharing a lot of content similar to what we talked about today. Um, so give us a follow and uh we'll see you out there.

Blake Elsner 36:33

Yeah, we'll definitely we'll put all that in the show notes so you can go ahead and follow him, reach out to him um for any any advice, and and I'm sure he will be gladly to help you out. Um, and and I think also following that Instagram, you know, hearing all this stuff, you're gonna see some of this content come on his platform as well. But going into the future, as this stuff as they learn and research and continue to um evolve with this stuff, they're only gonna know more and more about this and be able to, you know, probably dwindle down a treatment, a proper treatment. So definitely stick around and um stay tuned to Tom.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Thanks, man.

Blake Elsner 37:13

Absolutely. And as always, keep elevating. I'll see you on the next one. One love.