Welcome to Elevate with Elsner. Join us for inspiring conversations with individuals who have transformed their lives and are making a difference through the work that they do. And now, here's your host, Blake Elsner.

Welcome back to Elevate with Elsner the podcast where we highlight the people and stories that are truly elevating industries, businesses, and lives. I'm your host, Blake Ellsner. And today we're diving into what it truly takes to build a scalable and sustainable business. Joining me are Shannon and Will Dukes, the dynamic duo behind FecundFig a company that helps businesses bridge the gap between sales, marketing, and branding to create measurable success. Shannon is the Director of Operations, bringing a powerhouse background in high-level medical sales and business strategy. She's earned major accolades, including the prestigious President's Club Award for top national sales performance during the pandemic. Will is the founder and strategic mind behind the company. He has built a reputation for helping companies go from struggling to scaling by implementing business strategies that actually work. Together, they've created a formula for businesses to not just survive, but to thrive. We're going to break down their journey, how they help businesses grow, and the biggest mistakes companies make when trying to scale. So let's get into it. Welcome Shannon and Will.

Blake Elsner

Thanks for having us. Thank you.

Yeah. As I was joking here, I was, I was stumbling on back in big, you know, we got to all get that. We got to get that down. Right. That's gotta just, I want to say second pig, to be honest, but that's better than what my, uh, my mom said the first time that she saw it.

Cause, uh, she said that word that, that, that you said in the outtake.

Yeah. Yeah. We, yeah, we can put on my glasses. It's a second fig. I can't remember. No, but back in big. Right. Well, we can all get that one down. Well, that's something we can all talk about at the dinner table one night. Right. And it's a little free PR. Right. That's what I like to do.

So well, once you got it, it'll it'll stick with you.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It only took me a couple million times. But so it'll all make sense a little bit later. Yeah, yeah. Here we go. So why don't you walk us through walk us through this journey and kind of what led to the creation of this? Because it's been, what, 15 years now? Yeah.

So I we got married in college and moved down to Miami. I was a teacher in the public school system there. Shannon was finishing her master's in dietetics. She started working in one of the hospital systems down there and I left public education and went out on my own with a company that was called Sales Partners at the time. And so I kept that brand and was working under that. I was basically a coach and consultant around branding, marketing, and sales. A couple of years ago about two and a half years ago now, Shannon, I was able to coax her out of her job and medical sales that she had transitioned into that you mentioned, and she came on board. And then at. I don't know, it was maybe like six months to a year in. She was like, why, why is our name sales partners? Because we work on a lot of marketing and branding stuff too. And I had this whole reason of why I kept it and stuff. But eventually it got to the point where that was no longer sufficient because our real focus is what we call client cultivation. And it's that whole idea of aligning your branding, marketing and sales processes around a particular offer for a particular avatar, just like you're going to cultivate a crop. And I grew up on in a farm and had that kind of background. And so it was very natural to me to make all these analogies to that. And so when we were rebranding, we went through a really long process. A great branding agency, but when it came down to the name. At first, we were just going to like, like, why don't we just call it client cultivation. There were some issues with that and like trademarks and stuff and so. really started looking for another word to really kind of describe this and came across this word, fecund, which is an old, it's like a classical agricultural somewhat scientific term, and it's related to fertility, but the actual definition of fecund is the capacity to produce an abundance of new growth. And then fig is just one of my favorite fruits. It's alliterative, but it's also an ancient symbol of wisdom and prosperity. So together, the capacity to produce an abundance of new growth and wisdom and prosperity, that's really what we want for our clients. And so that's, it's wrapped up in the name and then it's, once you've got it, it's just fun to say.

That is pretty neat that you kind of have the whole vision wrapped through the name. That's that's kind of unique. You know, it's not not your everyday name. So that's pretty cool that it, you know, it translates into a motto or, you know, a phrase. That's neat. I like that.

Our branding agency would like that too.

Yeah. No, I'm sure. So like, you know, obviously a lot of businesses struggle with sales, marketing, branding, just all that working together. So, you know, what, what problems did you see in the market that said, Hey, we need to fix this.

Well, over the years, before I joined, Will worked with a variety of businesses, but organically, we've actually niched down where we primarily work with law firms. And this just happened naturally where one attorney client will refer us another and they refer us another and it's just grown to where pretty much think 95% of our clientele are actually attorneys. So we really focus on the unique problems that attorneys have with growing their firms.

But the There's definitely some unique things with attorneys there and how those things work together, but the problems are somewhat universal. And so the big thing that I always saw is you had plenty of marketing agencies out there, folks you could go to for lead generation. I need to get more leads, I'm trying to get more clients. SEO or PPC, or I can do email campaigns or there's 10,000 different ways that people can offer to help you grow your business. And then what I was really started off with mostly was kind of the sales training side. So, you know, all right, what are you going to do with these leads once you get them? And there's plenty of people that you can go to and a lot of great programs out there that can train on sales and how to close and have a better presentation. but there always seemed to be this disconnect between those two. And if you've seen any kind of larger company that has like a marketing department and a sales department, like oftentimes those two are at each other's throats and marketing is just out there trying to generate leads. And then sales is usually complaining about the quality of the leads. And then they go off and are doing prospecting on their own and they're not really working together. So that was usually, that was really kind of like the first big thing even back when I was on my own with sales partners. And so people would bring me in and actually one of our first law firm clients is still a client today. The first thing I remember her telling me was that paying for all of these PPC leads and they called the office, but none of them seem to actually turn into clients. And so I don't know if my leads suck or if my intake sucks, but something is a problem. And so we were going in and actually looking at not just the lead generation and the close in the sale, but what's all that process in between? And how do you intake calls? What does it sound like when the reception picks up the phone? Are they getting emails or communication that happens between that initial intake and the consultation or the actual sales meeting? And so we would work on those kind of systems, but then as we improve those, then it turned into, yeah, but your leads do kind of suck. And so we started branching off into understanding the marketing and that side, which is really just, you know, kind of sales on paper or on a screen these days. And then that also kind of turned into the brand. So how are these things getting unified together? And how are you building trust and familiarity, credibility with that target audience before you make an offer to get on a sales call or to download XYZ? And so by tying all of these things together into more of a holistic campaign, we started to see better results for our clients. And so that's how we started getting the referrals. And then it just kind of became this natural thing. to work with attorneys and we're both fairly highly educated ourselves and so it's just kind of been a natural fit that's allowed us to niche down.

Yeah that's definitely what I was just going to say is that you know niching down was that's obviously exactly what you did and it's clearly has worked and that you you built the the bridge between the problem and the solution. And now you're on... Since that bridge is built, it's like now you're on your niche. And now you're, I guess, on a mountain climbing elsewhere. So that's pretty neat that you've come that far. So what do you see that in the attorney side, I guess what was the biggest thing that led you to that? Now you kind of talked about it a little bit, but what really drew you to that?

So one, I guess it was an appreciation for the process. So most of our clients are smaller law firms. So maybe as much as a solo, just single attorney practice, up to like, eight or 10 attorneys that have been able to grow over the years, but usually when they're small, even though attorneys are very intelligent people, have a lot of education, law school doesn't prepare them to be a business owner. and it doesn't teach them how to manage a law firm or how to grow a law firm. It just teaches them how to be an attorney and how to ultimately just kind of be a grinder in one of these other big firms. And so people break off and there can be really good attorneys and they can do really well with maybe referrals or other folks that are in their network, sending them work. But then when they try to scale beyond that, it becomes a completely different animal. And they get really frustrated because they know they're a really good attorney. Oh, they can do the work. Somebody comes in, sits in front of them, tells them about this problem that they're having. And they're like, all right, I have the perfect solution or we know exactly how to handle this. We're gonna do X, Y, Z, file this, whatever the strategy may be there. But then that person like gets up and leaves and then they go hire some jackass down the road that they know they're a better attorney than this person. But then they're wondering why they're not making And it's usually because they're having a hard time being able to communicate their unique value, how their offer is differentiated from somebody else. And a lot of times, kind of in the space, you'll hear people talk about the best cases don't go to the best attorneys, they go to the best marketers. And we see that being the case a lot of times. And so we're trying to go in and bring our expertise, my background in communication, education, sales, into the law firms and help create those systems that still allow them to be really good attorneys, but to be able to generate quality leads, folks that are already kind of pre-sold before they get into the consultations, and then help to give them the skills they need to actually Persuade somebody to pay that retainer and not just be reliant on the referrals that they get from a network where somebody's already lent them all that trust.

That's an interesting point because As I joke, I got a speeding ticket over Thanksgiving in Illinois, Southern Illinois. So I'm in St. Louis. I'm like, who am I going to call an Illinois attorney, right? And I went with the best marketer. The person that was marketed the best, had the best brand. picked up the phone. It was the intake person. You know, they clearly, I thought I was talking to the lawyer the whole time. So they had this whole marketing thing down. Perfect. And I'm like, I was already sold just by, you know, the Google part of finding them on. I never, never once questioned their intelligence about the law.

Right, that's kind of expected.

Yeah. So that's interesting because I literally just did that. Like, I mean, what you just, what you're implementing is what I just did.

And that is something that we're seeing more and more is that, you know, maybe they are doing a lot of marketing, they're doing a lot of advertising, things like that, but they don't necessarily have a clear intake process. And so that's where it's getting lost. Like, oh yeah, we're getting all these leads, but we're not getting them converted. We're like, oh, okay, so what's your process? What's your script? And they're like, we don't have one. We're like, oh, well, red flag. And that's where we're like, okay, let's dive in. Let's break this down. Because if you don't have a process in place, then you can't replicate it. You don't know how you can improve it. You don't know how you can scale it.

Yeah, I mean, just imagine like, you know, you could have found them online or seen the ad or, you know, all the Google reviews, all that kind of stuff. And it gave you the confidence to give them a call. Right. But if somebody had just picked up the phone and just been like, law office, which is how a lot of attorneys have their people answer the phone, then all of a sudden it becomes like a different impression, right? If that intake person had just jumped into, all right, tell me your name, what kind of car, where were you at? And all of a sudden it turns into almost more of an interrogation before really understanding you, your frustration, the story behind it. And maybe a traffic ticket's not as difficult as, some other big criminal defense or a personal injury or divorce, a family law case, something like that. But that's often what the process is, is people go out and they invest all this money to get slick websites and put in ad dollars to get the phone ringing. But then it's like this giant hole in the bucket and people call and then they have a negative impression just from the intake person. And now they don't even have the opportunity attorney because they just weren't impressed enough to even take that next step.

Yeah. Well, maybe this attorney is one of your clients. I don't know. We might have to find that out, right?

Well, we do work with attorneys all over the United States.

That's what I figured. I'm like, geez, I mean, that's a it's spot on. But so, Shannon, obviously, being a President's Club Award winner, being a top performer in that medical sales, which obviously is no joke, that's a extremely, extremely hard thing to accomplish. So congrats on on that. That's a thing that'll stay with you forever. So that's awesome. How do you like transition that part because that, you know, you don't get accolades necessarily right now, right? You're the more handing out accolades, right?

Right. Um, it was a big transition. Um, honestly, I will, you know, we joke, he was, he was trying to kind of recruit me for many, many years. And I was like, there's no way we can work together. Like we'll kill each other. This is crazy. Um, and then, uh, the biggest thing I probably learned in that role was, about building relationships, about integrity. The reason I did so well in that position was because I was a person of service. I really wasn't trying to sell sell, it was more of like, how can I help you? Let me show you what I can do. And I was always very upfront. I never, um, I never over promised. I was very clear. Like if I can get this done in XYZ, I'm going to get it done. If I can't, I'm going to be very straight up with you. And people appreciated that because compared to some of the other competitors, they would say a lot of fluff, but then they couldn't deliver. And so I think that's something that I kind of bring here is, you know, part of our core values is integrity and really making sure that we're very clear with our clients of what we can do and what we can't do and why. And I also, because I had like eight hospital accounts, you had to learn to juggle a lot of balls and be very organized and be able to break down You know, if I had five or six patients that were going home that I needed to coordinate, I needed to know like priority and how to communicate with all the different teams to get everything to work together, which is why I was like, you would be perfect for operations because that's what I do. I'm having, we've, you know, since I joined, we built a team. Um, and so now it's making sure, like when we're working on projects, like. Every piece is clearly defined. There's deadlines. We're all communicating. We're communicating with ourselves, with our client. So I'm not doing as much as the front facing networking or sales part anymore. I'm more behind the scenes, just kind of making sure all the balls are in the air and everything's hitting. how it's supposed to hit with deadlines and expectations.

But now I am. Yeah. Get out there and use some of those other skills to achieve the goal.

Well, it sounds like you guys know how to delegate is, is, you know, a big, it's still a, it's still a process.

So for, you know, for the longest time, my business was really, I mean, it was really just me, right. I was in this kind of coach consultant role. And, uh, when Shannon came on, you know, we had some, some contractors we work with. I had one full-time assistant, um, that was kind of, of managing things and delegating stuff. But when she came on and as the team's grown, transitioned into more of an agency where we're not just coaching and giving direction on these intake processes and some of these other campaigns. When it's necessary, we'll get in and we'll help make some of the content or write out scripts for these attorneys to do videos. And we'll need to set up an ad campaign for a webinar or something to that effect. can go in and do that. We still work really well with other people on their team or if they have other marketing agencies they're working with like we don't do web design and SEO and that type of stuff. It's really kind of aligning all of these other pieces and then making sure that they're being followed through with and so We just kind of have grown into being able to fill the gaps, but that's come with its own challenges in learning how to manage the team. I didn't have project management software before, and so we had to implement that and learn how to do that and run a team, and our team is all virtual too. We basically work from home here, and we have virtual office down in Miami, but go down there and see clients. But that's pretty much everything definitely since the pandemic has been all through Zoom and Google Meet and Microsoft Teams. And so being able to manage that virtual team and then work with our clients at a distance has come with its challenges and its own learning curve.

Yeah. Yeah. But I'm sure it has because through that COVID part and yeah, you, you have to meet in front of a screen and then now you get to finally, as we all blossom back out into the world, get to meet with people, like you say. So, um, what, what would you say, like, I guess going forward is. the longterm vision for, you know, as I should say, FecundFig I'm going to say a little slower. Right. And like the businesses you help, like, are you going to stick with these law firms? Because I know lawyers right now that I, you know, I grew up with that. I'm like, You know, one thing they told me was always that these lawyers, very few are trial lawyers, right? Which trial lawyers are the ones that can have a personality and have the marketing experience. So that tells me, hey, these other lawyers, they're good at what they do and paperwork and everything. But like you say, they're missing that marketing side. And you clearly saw that. So I don't think you got to really move out of your lane, I guess. You know, that seems like the perfect niche.

Yeah, I mean, the fact that we can work with attorneys all over the country, that gives us a pretty big market to work with. And most, the vast majority of law firms are these small law firms, generally going to be under five attorneys. And so there's a lot of them out there because people go and they kind of get tired of working as a grinder in big law or in big firms and want to go hang up their own shingle. So I'm not worried about there being a lack of a market in that, because it will always be a need. So for us, though, I think one of the biggest things that we've really had to do in this transition from coach consultant to now more of an agency is, as a consultant, I had this whole client cultivation cycle, looking at branding, marketing, sales, and even how to generate testimonials, referrals, and networking. It was a lot of different pieces. Because I have been very much this generalist around all these processes, when people had an issue, I could go in and solve that issue, almost like your family physician in the medical sense. The problem with that is that doesn't scale, right? Because I can't ask my team to go and get the 15 years of experience working in all these different industries and working in with all types of different business owners to get the same level of experience. And so what we've really kind of realized is our offer isn't one offer, like it's really six or seven different pieces that we can go in and implement. And so as we grow, it's going to be more about focusing on those specific things. Your specific problem isn't just that you need more clients, it's probably that, all right, you need more leads, or you need better leads, or you need to be able to convert more of the leads that you're getting into clients. And so these pieces around branding, or around developing a solid lead magnet, or just being able to strategically identify Who is the best market? What is your unique offer? Or how can you structure your legal services as something that's really differentiated in the market? These are all different pieces that we can help people with over time. But to lead off into the scale outside of just referrals and kind of our networking for ourselves, That's going to require even more specific messaging and targeting around those problems that we can still help with, but we've got to be able to. to really drill down on those particular pain points and have an offer that's more like two or three months to really solidify that and then move into everything else versus, hey, come retain me for a year and we'll restructure all of your marketing and sales. That's just kind of too big of a problem when you're dealing with a team to be able to delegate all of those pieces.

Yeah, so I guess you would say you're going more to, you know, back to the, I don't want to say basics, but back to just building the bridges, right? You would say all the problems to the solutions, that bridge, you know, taking that problem out, whether it's a, you know, it's a hundred foot bridge or a 500 foot bridge, you know, obviously it's case by case, right?

Yeah.

And I think it's, you know, cause for him for so long, again, he was a consultant where he would just, you know, they would talk and then his client would just go and do whatever he told him. Now we have to take all that knowledge in his head and get it all documented and built out and processed so that we now have all these frameworks that already exist up there so that any type of attorney client that we have, we already have these clear processes. and frameworks already built out.

It's like a WDA. We'll call that a Will Dukes assessment, right?

Yeah, something that we actually call our client cultivation consultation. We'll get in and kind of figure out what's the What's the low-hanging fruit? What's the biggest kind of constraint in their client acquisition process?

Yeah, that's like our, it's really like almost like a business audit because it's a multi-page in-depth document that looks at every little piece of your sales marketing and branding. And we come with, it's a 90 minute session. And we, so they, we have, they have to fill out all this work. They send it to us. Will does this full analysis and then gives them like, okay, here's, here's the gaps. Here's the, you know, here's the big glaring issue that's popping out. And like, here's how we suggest you fix this. And either you've got a team, you can do it on your own or. we can help you, we can help you do this. So yeah, that's usually the first step.

That's our, that's our, that's our big focus. Like last year was the rebrand and now this year is. focusing on documenting and scaling our processes better. Then, ultimately, I have a background, and my core identity is of educator. As we get those processes more clearly defined, then it's going to be a lot of returning back to teaching and creating more content. Who knows where that will go in the future? I look to do more of these types of speaking events and being able to talk about the whole big idea of looking at sales and marketing as client cultivation and not just going out and fishing for leads and whatever happens to be viable.

Yeah. I would say it sounds like you're creating what I would say a manual, right? In a way, it's kind of like our cars come with a manual or, or in a way, and you can either take this, this WDA manual right here, the Shannon, you know, I guess I would say S. What? DA? SDA? Whichever. You can choose whichever one you want. We're probably going to lead you to the same spot. But yeah, you're creating these manuals. And I think that people have so many holes in these, like you're saying, or gaps that you read into what you're doing and what you're offering and break apart your brain. And yeah, you get to fill in those little gaps that your business is missing. And I think lawyers, like you said, they don't have a lot of time. They're busy people. And I think that's a great niche. And somebody has to do it. Like I said, millennials are going to get pulled over like myself. And they're going to go to Google and go, Hey, who's a good lawyer? And that's a pretty good logo. That looks like their branding is pretty good. And that's what I did. And you're doing exactly what I did to find my lawyer.

And I think you hit on something right there, like talking about how busy these attorneys are. That's usually one of the hardest things of starting. And this isn't just true for law firms, it's true for a lot of businesses. But when you go out there and you're kind of that solopreneur and you're getting started, you may have a very solid skill set and be able to do things. in a great way, deliver great results, but you still have to be able to tell people about it. When you're just getting started, it's this big mix of, alright, I'm going to go out and do networking. I'm going to try to post content online, but then you still have to have time to actually do the work, actually do the stuff that people are paying you to do. What happens a lot of times is, somebody goes and starts off. eating rice and beans or ramen noodles or whatnot, but they're getting out there and they're hustling and they're grinding and they're networking and they kind of build up this network and also they get referrals. And then now they have work now they have some things coming in and so they don't have time to go out and do the networking or to be posting the content or doing all the other things that they did. And so eventually starts to dry up. And so they now have this feast famine cycle. And really what we're trying to do, and why again, relate all this stuff back to farming like is, they were out kind of eating what you kill, like, I like to say hunters live in caves, most of human history, we were just like in hunter gatherer tribes and, you got hungry and you went out and you hunted and you brought back and then the tribe survived another couple weeks or whatnot and then you got hungry again and you had to go out and it wasn't until we figured out how to reliably, predictably, scalably, produce food through agriculture, that civilization actually was able to get started. Because now when there was abundant food around, or at least more predictable food around, now people could start to specialize. They could start to do other roles. Now you can build villages into cities. And that's really the foundation of civilization. And so what we're trying to get people to think about is moving beyond that beast famine eat what you kill, just go out and hunt and fish for the work when you need it and really kind of create these processes where you're continually cultivating the clients that you crave. And that will then provide the cashflow to now hire other attorneys or hire other staff that can take some of that load off your plate. You can really work on the business and then that's what's going to enable you to scale. But if you don't have a system that is reliably generating that continual flow of leads and new cases, then you're not going to be able to do that. And for some people, that's fine. That's all they really wanted to do. They just wanted to hang their shingle and just kind of do contract work for other law firms or handle a case here and there and kind of have this lifestyle firm. But even then, a lot of times folks get burned out. that because it's this constant cycle that continually has to be attended to. And if they don't figure out how to make it reliable, they just get burned out.

Yeah, no, I agree with just everything you just said there. It's pretty neat that you figured You both figured this out because it's kind of one of those things I think that slipped everybody's mind. And now you guys are so into it. You're the OGs of it pretty much. So that's pretty cool that you figured that out. Now, obviously, you're still, I'm sure, willing to listen to other industries, but the majority of the clientele is lawyers and attorneys. I will obviously put all of your information on the show notes. And we got lawyers that listen to this. And I think lawyers that listen to this can benefit from your services. Because like I said, I know these guys, these gals, they work hard. They work a lot of hours and they just don't have that time for that stuff.

Yeah.

So.

And it's the same reason that they they're out there and they tell people to hire them because anybody can go and has the right to file a motion or represent themselves in the court system, but you know that's that's. have all the education and training around that. They're good at being teachers or mechanics or doctors or whatever it is. They hire the specialist who has the expertise to go in and be able to do that at a high level. And so it's the same thing. I've had more than one attorney tell me straight out, it's like, I know I am a good attorney, but I don't know sort of explicative here about marketing and about sales. And that's why they hire us. That's our expertise, that's our experience. And we have a track record of being able to do that across practice areas and really across industries. But specifically, we get lawyers, we can speak their language and understand what they're doing.

Yeah. Cause that's a special, special language to speak. So obviously you've figured it out and can interact with that type of individual, um, on a high level. So going, going forward here, as we close this out, what would you say, um, if you had to give one tip to somebody, you know, starting either some type of a brand, you know, wants to get into branding or marketing or, um, Even medical sales, right? You've been down that road, Shannon. So just as a business lifestyle, I just like to sum it up with two tips from each one of you.

Let me go first. Oh, okay. I think one of the things that I learned that helped me be successful in medical sales that I think translated over here as well is you can't do all the things all at once. So pick one area and grow that, build that, get it solid, get it, where it's already continuing to provide return. And then once that is sustainable, then you add to it. And that's how I really grew when I was in medical sales. I focused on one or two accounts, put all my energy on them. And then once I got them where they were continually referring me, where I didn't have to be there as often, then I could put my energy into building another account and slowly just kept building on top of that. If you try to do all the things all at once, nothing's ever gonna get accomplished.

I love that. I love that because obviously it's what you learn and now it's translated to this. So what do you got for us, Will?

So it could go in a lot of different ways, but if I had to boil it down top, One thing, and for people that are starting off or are still thinking to grow, it'd be that you can't think of your firm as a tool to make you money. At the end of the day, it is that, and that's got to be important to be profitable because what else is the point of doing it on your own? But understand that your firm actually exists to solve problems for your And so if you put that first, like the first thing that we're here for is to solve the problems of our clients, then that's going to affect your messaging, that's going to affect the empathy, the brand, and that starts to come through as the authentic thing that really attracts people. And then you can have this framework to reference against. When you see a problem, something's breaking down, like, okay, are we still talking to the clients about their problems, about helping them to get to the other side, get through this issue? Or does it come across like, we're just making things efficient for us, or we're trying to make money off of them? At the end of the day, it does have to be profitable and you have to do that, but that comes on the back end, because if you can really focus on who really are you serving and what is that keen avatar, what is their problem and what is the pain and the frustration that they're experiencing, You focus everything you're doing, the content that you're making, the process being easier to get through. You focus it around solving that and making them feel understood and heard through that. you're going to do a lot better. And then all of the other pieces, your Google profile, your website, your marketing and ads, your intake process, your sales consultations, all these things will start to fall in line. If you just keep that at the front is these are the problems that we're solving for this particular group of people. And this is the value that we're creating.

And then the money starts to roll in, you know, that's the thing. Yeah. Don't, I like how you say that, you know, you, you can't, you can't put that at the forefront because that's just gonna not, not lead to success. You need to do all that other stuff like you just mentioned before. And, um, that's, that's truly a great advice. So I, uh, appreciate you both being on here. So yeah. So for those listening who want to learn more about FecundFig and how they can help take your business to the next level, especially these lawyers listening, they're high skilled people as you just listened. So you can check them out at F-E-C-U-N-D-F-I-G.com. That's FecundFig.com. And as always, if today's episode brought you value, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with someone who needs to hear it. Keep pushing forward. Keep elevating. See you next time on Elevate with Ellsner. Thanks for being on.

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